The cure for incivility on MyDD

I've got an idea. I think I know how this wonderful blog can be made more wonderful - with a simple rule.

I recently wrote a rather vitriolic diary about one of the frontpagers who had used their platform to spread misinformation about a progressive Democrat running for President. You can look it up if you care.

After much back and forth in the comments, I generally felt kinda bad for ripping into that one frontpager - no one disagreed that he'd been factually wrong, mind you, or that anything I said about his diary was untrue, but it was generally agreed I'd been too harsh about it. And I think that's fair. Which got me thinking, how can we avoid such incivility in the future. And I think I've got the answer:

An absolute standard of TRUTH.  more below...

Truth is a powerful thing. And while we all have our opinions, and hold to them fiercely, I happen to believe that what really sets off brutal back-and-forth 'flame wars' are patently untrue attacks on each other, or on the one thing we seem to hold as dear as ourselves, our Progressive leaders.

For example, when someone suggests that John Edwards doesn't really give a damn about poor people because he lives in a nice house, that's guaranteed to raise a ton if ire from the Edwards supporters around here. And it should - it's bullshit. Now, if someone said that Edwards lacked good judgement because he voted for the war in 2003, I think most Edwards supporters would just treat that as irrelevent old news, and not get quite so irate - which, again, is the right reaction, because while it might be unimportant in 2007, that doesn't make it untrue.

Similarly, Obama supporters don't seem to mind too much when their candidate is taken to task for wanting to keep a small number of troops somewhere in Iraq, strictly to fight Al-Qaeda. Others might rip into Obama for that stance, but that's not really inapropriate of them, since it is, in fact, his stance. Any heat he takes about it he deserves - it's his factual position. But when someone suggests that he wants to re-invade Iraq on a 'do-over' or that he wants to deal with global challenges like pandemics and global warming all through 'corporate channels', that makes Obama supporters irate because they know that he supports no such thing.

So I propose an oath of sorts:
'We do solemnly swear to express our opinions forcefully, to disagree vehemently, and to give each other and our leaders all the criticism we can WITHOUT ever knowingly lying or misrepresenting the positions of those we disagree with, WITHOUT blatantly taking others' comments and quotes out of context, and WITHOUT extending our criticism from the issues and positions to the private people who hold them.'

I hereby take my own oath. You can quote me on it. And if you like, please join in and take it too.

And if you have some pull around here (I'm talking to you, Chris, Matt, Jerome, and Jonathan), consider making this an absolute rule of MyDD - I would trust you to enforce it in the diaries and comments, if you also enforce it first and foremost on the frontpage itself. That means policing each other a bit, but I think you're up to the task.


Poll
Would you take the oath?
Yes
No

Votes: 10
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (none / 0)

No thanks. Just say to blogger codes of ethics.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 11:07:04 AM EST

Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (none / 0)

This interests me. I haven't read any of the previous pieces on the so-called 'blogger code of ethics' - I was never interested in the idea, and even as I wrote the above diary, I didn't realize that that was what my voluntary oath amounted to in common interpretation.

Since it is my general impression that the entire blog world is pretty opposed to some sort of 'code' does this mean that the same blog world is opposed to even a mere standard of truth? Or is it just that such an issue as that gets swept aside because of the more forceful dislike of limited free speech, etc.?

I don't intend to deprive anyone of their free speech, mind you. I just think that without imposing any standards of undue civility, a 'reality-based' standard for our criticisms would at least temper, if not completely avoid, the inevitable confrontations of passionate viewpoints. Is that asking too much?


by James Gatz on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 06:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (3.00 / 0)

The only way to prevent horrific diaries like your last one, is to follow the simplest of rules:

Say whatever you like about politicians, celebrities, religious leaders.  Vent, if you must, bash.    BUT....Never, ever, ever go into vicious attack mode on a poster personally for his stated views, even extremely negative ones.  And, even if they don't hold up to fact check and scrutiny.   Don't engage in name calling on a POSTER.  Rebut what you consider false statements with clarifications and YOUR version of events.   Reserve the vitriol for the politician or celebrity or religious leader you can't stand or have a problem with.   Don't go after individual posters by calling THEM names or wishing the plague on them.    

Problem solved.  


by georgep on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 11:15:08 AM EST

Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (none / 0)

I neither think that's a good solution, nor a workable one. Not good, because double standards (bloggers can criticize people not on the blog for what they say, but can't be criticized back for what they themselves say?) are never great; and not workable because, as we have seen, people take rude and especially untruthful attacks on their favored candidates to heart, effectively making them attacks on the supporters as well, and setting off the cycle of vitriol in the first place.

No, I do think the only reasonable thing would be to nip it in the bud in the first place: just don't smear progressive Democrats on a progressive Democratic blog, even if they are public figures.


by James Gatz on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 06:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sounds like part of Obama's (none / 0)

platform: a war on incivility.

Not thanks, and I say that with the upmost civility.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 11:28:18 AM EST

To me its simple (none / 0)

Say what you like, express your opinions as you wish, and let your voice be heard without censor, to  a reasonable degree. If what you are saying is unacceptable, there are mechanisms in place for setting you straight, such as the critiques of fellow bloggers, the ratings system, and if necessary, the banishing power of the moderators. That's what blogging is all about.


by mihan on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 11:30:37 AM EST

Yeah (none / 0)

although if I were king of a blog, I wouldn't ban or threaten to ban and I don't think I'd have a ratings system. Let the argument stand on its own. A straightforward battle of words and ideas.

This constant threat of banning used by Stoller et al is counter progressive, and I don't know how they can justify it.


by david mizner on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 11:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah (none / 0)

Oh no, I wouldn't want to ban people for just anything...just for the people who have little else to do besides interject various degrees of nonsense and objectionable comments, such as hateful, racist, overtly disrputive; the obvious turd-stains among us.

As for Stoller, he seems to run a little hot-headed and can be a bit too quick to use that kind of threat. But that's the price we pay for coming here, I guess.


by mihan on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 11:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe you should have thought more about this (3.00 / 0)

before your last diary?


by okamichan13 on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 12:17:00 PM EST

Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (3.00 / 1)

Matt can fuck off and die if he thinks it was no big deal.

I might point out that your moral credibility on this issue is a bit tarnished.


by Matt Stoller on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 05:46:08 PM EST

Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (3.00 / 1)

By the way, you should learn to write better hit pieces.  If you're going to call someone a liar, you have to actually catch them lying.  It's just a bit of friendly advice.

Of course I could be lying about it all.


by Matt Stoller on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 05:47:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (none / 0)

Well, I don't want to re-hash that rather nasty hit piece anyhow - note that I took care not even to mention you by name in the above diary.

But as for calling you a liar (which, by the way, thank you for noticing - I'm afraid some people got the impression that I thought you were some generally horrible person or had some personal dislike of you, which I don't; I objected quite specifically to your words and their lack of truth), I agree that if it had to be done (and I'm sort of swearing off doing it in future, hoping that others stand for truth above civility instead), it needed to be done with specific substance and quoted lies. But if you read the piece (I hope you did, and not just the title and choice comments), you'll note that that is exactly what it was, in toto: a point-by-point listing of explict and provable lies. I mean, if that isn't 'catching someone lying', then what is?


by James Gatz on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 06:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (2.00 / 0)

Don't worry Matt, I have no intention of doing you any bodily harm. FOD was just a suggestion, not a threat. But honestly, don't you think mocking those of us who DO think 9.11 was kinda a big deal is inevitably going to provoke stong emotions?

By the way, I understand that you might not have meant that in so many words - and if you didn't (and I sure hope you didn't) then you'll note that the conditional word IF negates the above rude suggestion completely.

In any case, I make no claim to such grandiose and ill-defined ideas as moral credibility, I perfer to let ideas and facts stand for themselves. If you don't like the idea of a standard of TRUTH in our discourse, just say so. Don't dodge the issue by suggesting that some previous overreaction to prior lies somehow negates my ability to plead for future truth.


by James Gatz on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 06:37:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (none / 0)

You aren't really proud of yourself for writing that idiotic diary are you?

But honestly, don't you think mocking those of us who DO think 9.11 was kinda a big deal is inevitably going to provoke stong emotions?

I don't think you could be any more full of shit. Honestly I really don't.

Here's what Matt said about 9/11 when paraphrasing Obama:

Also, 9/11 changed everything, trade agreements are complicated, Iraq was a dumb war.  Oops, our bad, can we get a do-over?  Kissinger told me we could.

Now I see how that would piss off an Obama partisan but you call that "mocking those of us who DO think 9.11 was a big deal"?

What Matt wrote reads to me as the standard Democratic criticism of right-wingers who try to use 9/11 to justify everything. His opinion seems to be that Obama was buying into that.

You know how Republicans use 9/11 right? The standard right-wing approach is to act like everything a Democrat says that disagrees with them on national security shows a disrespect for the importance and lessons of 9/11.

Obviously you've seen that dishonest approach since you now copy it in attacking Matt.

What you've done is lie about and distort what Matt said.

Pretty ironic that.


by Curt Matlock on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 09:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The cure for incivility on MyDD (none / 0)

Well, maybe that's fair. But the point was that Obama didn't say '9/11 changed everything', but what he actually said was a fair recognition of those attacks and why they are important to consider as we look at our foreign policy.

'9/11 changed everything' is a well-known Bush line, and using it to mischaracterize Obama IS mocking those of us (like Obama) who think 9/11 was important (even if we don't think it justified the war in Iraq).

I hope that's clearer now.


by James Gatz on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 09:08:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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